FUCK PISS SHIT CUNT MOTHERFUCKERS

Online gambling stocks nosedive

PartyGaming and 888 both said they will suspend their US operations once the new law comes into effect. President Bush is expected to sign the legislation within the next two weeks, after which it will be illegal for American banks and credit card companies to process payments to online gaming companies.

Explore posts in the same categories: Poker, Politics

62 Comments on “FUCK PISS SHIT CUNT MOTHERFUCKERS”

  1. ozrisk Says:

    Yobbo,
    As I said on the last thread, there is an easy way around this. The bill does not affect UK (or other foreign) banks, nor does it affect US banks making payments to foreign banks. Simple. US customer takes out a credit card with foreign bank. His (or her) US bank then pays the credit card bill.
    There will be a product out within weeks to allow this – just watch.

  2. yobbo Says:

    Please ozrisk, you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. There is no easy way around this bill, it not only affects what bank you use but completely bans online gambling enterprises from serving US customers (as in anyone with a US address). The 3 largest online poker sites have already said they will no longer allow US customers onto their sites after the ban is signed.

    Of course it is possible to get around the bill by moving to another country or simply committing wire fraud by gambling under a false name and address, but 95% of current gamblers are not going to bother with either the trouble or the risk of doing so, and the 5% who do are going to be the winning players rather than the losers.

    The UK stock exchange did not lose 2 billion pounds over a mere inconvenience.

  3. MrLefty Says:

    What’s the politics behind it? Is it the anti-gambling fundy christian right, or is there some corporate interest involved?

  4. yobbo Says:

    Who cares? The point is I am completely fucked. I haven’t worked for 7 years and US congress just legislated my life away.


  5. Imperialistic motherfuckers.

    This might be completely asanine, but I don’t want to see you (or anyone) as destitute. Surely you could get a gig in that Burwood casino you hate so much, at least as one of their staff?

    They probably stole your leisure time, rather than your income I suppose?


  6. The link in Yobbo’s original post had a lot of commentary, Mr Lefty.

    But see here:

    http://www.online-casinos.com/news/news2974.asp

    It seems a lot of people will be put out of work by this law.

  7. yobbo Says:

    As what ABL?

    I have a 7 year gap in resume, I don’t know how to deal and I’m too ugly to serve drinks. The only gig I could get there would be to play poker professionally.

  8. ozrisk Says:

    yobbo,
    I confess to not using online gambling – but I do know the banks.
    A couple of questions. Do the casinos need a physical address to send things to? Is the only way that they know where you actually are from your:
    a) Credit card details;
    b) Your declared address; and
    c) Your IP address?
    If so, each of these can be overcome. The casinos have to say they are complying with the law – but I would be really surprised if, a few weeks after this goes into law, the revenues drop anything like the amounts that they are saying.

  9. yobbo Says:

    No Ozrisk, they don’t need an address to send things to. But if you provide them with a false name and address then not only are you committing the offense of wire fraud in the US, but you are also making it very difficult to prove your own identity in the case of a dispute. You would also have to provide a false address to the bank you opened your overseas bank account with.

    If your account is in a false name or address, then you would have to be able to provide documents to the company in that false name or address to prove your identity (e.g. passport).

    Also the casinos could quite easily put a block on any US IPs to make sure people are complying with the law.

    And yes, they can quite easily be overcome – but the point is that casual players who play primarily for fun are unlikely to be comfortable faking these sort of details to play at an online casino. And even if they were comfortable with it, they probably wouldn’t go to all the trouble.

    Obviously for professional players it is worth the time and expense, but then all you are left with is an online casino full of professional players. Not exactly a great place to make a living.

  10. MrLefty Says:

    “Who cares?” Well, you do, obviously. I’d have thought you’d like to know to whom to direct your outrage and your lobbying efforts.

    Meanwhile, you haven’t worked for seven years?

  11. tigtog Says:

    On principle I’m no big fan of gambling, but this sort of legislation is exactly the worst way to combat gambling addiction (its putative goal). The addicts will move to even more underground illegal online gaming sites with no consumer protections at all.

    It’s just as ineffective as the Prohibition Bill and the War on (Some) Drugs – legitimate businesses lose their trade, consumers lose avenues of recourse against contaminations/fixes, and illegality flourishes. Plus the state forgoes tax revenue.

    Stupid.

  12. ozrisk Says:

    Yobbo,
    No need for a false name or address. This would be covered under anti-money laundering legislation and regulations in any case. I currently have (perfectly legally) a bank account overseas with a bank with no US connections. If I wanted to I could use that one and a Visa or Mastercard debit card (as I have) to gamble, just topping it up on an as-required basis. The bank is also happy to act as a post box for me, for the appropriate fee, of course.
    The only remaining problem is the IP address, but the Chinese have been getting around this problem for ages using a anonymizer proxy.

  13. Wantock Says:

    The word at the Point Cruz Yacht club in the Solomon Islands, after a few Solbrews – the best beer in the world, is that Manasseh Sogavare may loose Fridays vote of no confidence.

    Any change of the parliamentarians heart is not due to diplomacy but the desire to keep milking the Aussie cash cow, Sogavare antics have only produced a cantankerous old Aussie bull which is all prick and no tit.

    The Renadi rubbish tip is where the poor live, they are constantly being evicted and fined but they return as they have nowhere else to go, they drink cheap quaso (illegal grog) as Solbrew is too expensive.

    The phrase O2 brings smiles and happiness. O2 means the sexual partner not spouse. The Pacific Islanders have a far healthier attitude to sex than the white fellas and are offended by the social engineers from Oz with their alien attitudes, lack of cultural sensitivity and Greerist dogma.

    Now what is the white fella doing to the Attorney General, Julian Moti, him not wantock but Indian fella. He had consensual sex with a 13 year old girl in 1997 in Vanuatu, He has been in front of Vanuatu courts three times and not been convicted. He freely lived in Aussie after that and was not arrested. Now white fella is stirring pot.

    White fella is funny lot.

  14. ozrisk Says:

    Thinking about it, while this would be perfectly legal, the banks with operations in the US, or US ambitions, might have some worries about accepting this sort of business. The US has a history of cutting companies off from US contact for this sort of thing.
    If this does prove a significant worry for them you would have to revert to prepaid acounts and fedex – not the most efficient and at least likely to allow gamblers to keep better track of their accounts, which can be a significant impediment to a casual gambler.

  15. yobbo Says:

    MrLefty: Not unless you think playing cards is working.

    “The only remaining problem is the IP address, but the Chinese have been getting around this problem for ages using a anonymizer proxy.”

    I was in China last year and the majority of proxies are also blocked. It is not “easy” to get around any of these measures. It takes time, knowhow and money. And the point is, it’s time, knowhow and money that casual players aren’t going to bother with.

    Don’t forget that what may seem “easy” to a computer expert is not at all easy to someone who uses their computer primarily for web browsing and gambling. Likewise, 90% of people would have no idea that you can even hold a foreign bank acccount, let alone know how to set one up.

    I visited Thailand last year where online gambling is banned. The majority of gambling websites are IP blocked. The actual gaming clients themselves are not blocked, but to be able to install one of them I had to get hold of an install file, which I couldn’t download from the web due to the firewall. Every web proxy I tried was also blocked.

    It took me the help of 2 computer savvy friends and about 6 hours spent at an internet cafe to get the Party Poker client installed. Not the sort of hassle any casual player is going to go through just to try it out. Since I play for a living though, it was obviously worth it to me.

  16. Andjam Says:

    What struck me as odd was that there wasn’t any warning of it.

    Casino Gambling Web has a theory that it’s part of a “Good Cop, Bad Cop” routine – the wowsers can say that “at least we tried” when the ban gets defeated, and as part of the “compromise” will be regulation.

    Stuff that – I know that bluffing is a part of politics but this is way too much. I hope this approach backfires.

    What’s the current status of online gambling? Is it that Aussies are allowed to gamble anywhere, but Aussie online casinos aren’t allowed?

  17. JC Says:

    Sorry to hear abou this Yobbo. I don’t blame you getting pissed. I don’t think there is much of a way around it as the houses won’t service US residents if they know what’s good for them. You see it in the securities markets as the broking forms all have a special clause about US residents. It’s not worth the risk of having the US authorities running after you, as they’ll seize anything and ask questions later.

    Why don’t you go pro? I guess the answer is that there are easier pickings in the amateur world for you. I appreciate that.

    Try stock trading. You can apply the same risk strategies to it and make a great living. The liquid stocks are great to trade. Don’t have to know too much about them if you use say a technical system. 99% of trading is “knowing when to fold them”and using risk goopd risk management. If you survived card playing for 7 years chances are you could make a great trader.

    I make a great living out of stocks and currencies and the work load is only a few hours a day.

    Let me know if you need some help looking at it.

  18. JC Says:

    Yobbo

    I reckon this was Vegas interests that lobbied. Follow the money trail from Vegas to the the supporters on the hill, as they’ll be rolling in it for November.

  19. JC Says:

    Leftys says:
    What’s the politics behind it? Is it the anti-gambling fundy christian right, or is there some corporate interest involved?

    Lefty you really are ignorant aren’t you. The Christian right had as much to do with it as as you having two fathers, lefty. It was Vegas, you nimrod. And I bet the money flowed to both parties.

    and then he adds:

    “Who cares?” Well, you do, obviously. I’d have thought you’d like to know to whom to direct your outrage and your lobbying efforts.

    Meanwhile, you haven’t worked for seven years?

    No yobbo works for a living, Lefty. You just don’t understand most things.

  20. Orpheus Says:

    BBC has an interesting take on this – protectionism.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5401452.stm

  21. yobbo Says:

    As far as I can tell there are a number of issues involved, but primarily the reason this bill went through is that gambling is already illegal in the US, the only reason Internet gambling was previously legal is that no existing legislation covered it. This bill was seen as “cleaning up loopholes” to most, but Ebay/Paypal, the pre-existing US casinos and the religious right were certainly keen to see it passed.

  22. JC Says:

    yobbo
    there is onlne gambling is the US isn’t there. I thought US operators could provide that service… No?

  23. yobbo Says:

    No. That is why all online casinos are based in Gibraltar, Carribean, and various other tax havens.

    Previously US companies could not provide it, but US users could still use offshore sites. Now US citizens will not be able to gamble at any online site.

  24. yobbo Says:

    “What’s the current status of online gambling? Is it that Aussies are allowed to gamble anywhere, but Aussie online casinos aren’t allowed?”

    Pretty much, with the exception of Ladbrokes which was trading online before the Australian ban was brought in.

    And, of course, the state-owned TAB.

    Gambling is evil you see, unless it’s run by the government.

  25. yobbo Says:

    “Why don’t you go pro? I guess the answer is that there are easier pickings in the amateur world for you. I appreciate that.”

    I went pro 3 years ago. The point is that there is more money to be made online than there is in a physical casino. Most successful pros play online.

    I play poker 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

    If this new bill indeed does kill online gaming I will be forced to either play at an Australian Casino or move to Las Vegas.

  26. Andjam Says:

    Is housing expensive in Las Vegas?

  27. JC Says:

    yobbo
    doesn’t the rest of the world play as much as Americans?

    I always had a concern with putting up money online, not that gamble with card games. My concern is how do you trust the operator to be honest.? It is money we’re talking about. How do you know they’re behaving themselves and not fooling round. Made me think that physical presence was more important.

  28. yobbo Says:

    No JC, US players make up 85-90% of the online poker market.

    “My concern is how do you trust the operator to be honest.? It is money we’re talking about. How do you know they’re behaving themselves and not fooling round.”

    Partygaming is listed on the UK stock exchange. Here is their annual report. Last year they made $332million US dollars. They are not interested in stealing your $100 bankroll, believe me.

    I have played online for 7 years and not once have I not received my money. Nowadays it is wired into my bank account within 24 hours of the transaction.

    It is money we are talking about, yes. In particular, $400 million a year they wouldn’t dream of risking by sullying their reputation by not sending out funds when requested.

  29. ozrisk Says:

    Yobbo,
    Those proxies can be blocked from China or Thailand, but the chances of them being blocked from the US are fairly remote.
    My guess is that some of the smaller banks around the world will start printing “how to” sheets on opening foreign accounts and there will be enough information on blogs to get around the proxy issues.
    It will be quiet for a while, though, while these options get better known. Like the original prohibition, it cut consumption early on until the work-arounds got known and then it became less and less effective.
    Meanwhile – JC is right. Some of the better traders I know were pro poker players. One or two are even in Perth, working for some of the resource companies in their treasury areas.

  30. C.L. Says:

    Yobbo, what’s the sales pitch with this? Are they arguing doofus amateurs are ruining their family finances with online gambling, ‘we have to save them from themselves’, that sort of thing? Are there safeguards to keep hopeless cases out of the games etc?

    Gambling is evil you see, unless it’s run by the government.

    Exactly. For most of the last century, certain folks in Australia were frequently harrassed by gambling wowsers – aka the police (who weren’t really an obstacle – lol) – for running shops whose procedures have become perfectly legitimate in the last decade or so. The reason those procedures (phones, off course betting etc) have become legitimate nowadays is that governments want to up their slice of the goodies, shameless addicts that they are. Hope you can transition to something else, Yobbo, if it comes to that. Best wishes.

  31. yobbo Says:

    Yes, well being a trader is one future career path I had considered.

    However, having no degree and no work experience in the last 7 years is not likely to net me many interviews, “Professional Poker Player” not being something highly sought after in the business world, that is if they even believe that’s what I did rather than being on the dole.

    Even now most people I meet think I am deluded or even lying when they tell them what I do for a living. So I usually just say I’m a lawyer or banker to avoid the conversation.

    And unfortunately I haven’t earned enough to have a large enough bankroll to trade on my own dime.

    So in all likelihood if the bottom falls out of the Online gaming industry I will be another statistic in the unemployment figures.

  32. ozrisk Says:

    yobbo,
    Play heavily over the next few weeks – there are likely to be a lot of amateurs gambling big before the cut off. That should get you a decent bankroll. Sign up with one of the execution only brokers and do some market trading until enough people work their way around the prohibition for it to be worthwhile to start gaming again.
    You might be surprised on the qualifications, though. The fact you have supported yourself without recourse to the dole shows the money has clearly been coming in and the ability to trade is valued. It would be difficult, as you suspect, but one of the brokerages may well be prepared to give it a go.
    Just a thought.

  33. yobbo Says:

    Im not sure if you’re aware of how Perth works Ozrisk, but if you don’t have a degree recruitment agencies won’t even take your resume.

    I am not going to waste my time applying for a job. I might return to Uni and complete my degree or I might just jump off a bridge. Either way eating shit from some 20-something HR consultant telling me to get some qualifications is not on my list of priorities.

  34. JC Says:

    wow
    They make 400 mill a year through online gaming. Never realized it was such big business.

  35. yobbo Says:

    $60 billion a year JC. I think you are starting to understand now, no?

  36. JC Says:

    60 bil is what exactly? The sales figure> surely not total industry profits of online gaming????????? Surely not.

  37. JC Says:

    Yobbo
    If you want to take a closer look at trading, have a think about it. I could be interested in staking you and figuring out a profit share etc.

    If you have good card playing skills you surviving for 7 years means you do.

    Think up a strategy, what you would trade, how you would trade, what system you would use. How you would manage the money etc. and …… if you are still interested let me know and we can talk

    My secondary email address is joeca12345@yahoo.com
    I only check that infrequently though.

  38. ChrisV Says:

    Bit of misinformation on this thread…

    Andjam: There was plenty of warning. The Internet Gambling Prohibition Act of 1999 was only not passed by the House because the corrupt DeLay took money from Jack Abramoff to scuttle it. The current bill was actually passed by the Senate by tacking it on to an important bill (a contemptible practice that ought to be outlawed) but if it had come to a vote, it may very well have passed anyway. It passed by a resounding majority in the House. As Yobbo said, this federal law is really just updating a law that most states already have, to fit the internet. So much for the land of the free.

    C.L.: The sponsor of the bill in the house, Robert Goodlatte, was fond of using the phrase “You just click your mouse and lose your house”. That’s how this thing was getting sold. And the Bible bashers love it of course, any excuse to tell people what they’re not allowed to do in their own homes.

    I don’t share Wardy’s view that the sky is falling. It’s unclear at this point what will happen. Publicly traded companies in the UK such as PartyGaming, 888 (which operates Pacific Poker) and Cryptologic were quick to announce they would suspend US players, presumably out of fear investors would be scared by the stench of illegality. Pokerstars will probably follow suit (Party and Stars are, or were, easily the biggest sites on the net). However a lot of smaller sites have announced their intention to carry on as before. It is not clear what funding sources will or will not be available. Credit cards seem unlikely, but onine payment solution provider Neteller’s share price rallied today after crashing yesterday. Finally, although it’s true that 85% of Party’s business was from the US, this might not be a disaster if the fish/shark ratio remains roughly the same. Plus in recent times, other markets have been growing much faster than the US. Party lost 85% of its business but only 60% of it’s share price, so that actually seems fairly optimistic on the part of the market.

    JC: I’d be interested in hearing about your experiences with trading. Drop me a line at cvinall-gmail-com if you’re willing to chat.

  39. C.L. Says:

    Thanks Chris. Reminds me in a round-about way of the government harrassment of George Adams’ (which I wrote about last year). That makes me wonder if the online companies did much charity and socially beneficial work with their profits. Modern Vegas is big on this kind of thing, I understand. Sure it’s PR but the ‘give something back’ idea undermines the wowser talking points. Were the companies politically savvy corporate citizens in this respect and would it have made a difference anyway?

  40. yobbo Says:

    The companies involved are not based in the US. I am sure that Costa Rica, Antigua and Gibraltar have done pretty well out of the online poker boom though. As has India, which is the home of Party Poker client designer Anurag Dikshit and thousands of Party Poker customer support staff.

  41. Andjam Says:

    Thanks for the fact-check ChrisV.

    I was also wondering if the size of the pool or the shark/fish ratio would be the critical factor, or whether both are.

    C.L., I’m impressed by some of the essays you’ve written. Have you ever considered contributing to wikipedia?


  42. Sorry to hear about your troubles at work.

    I’d also be interested in chatting about trading. Perhaps we should set up an underground alliance of free-market currency-traders?🙂

    One question for those in the know. How does the non-US online gamling market now compare with the total online gamling market of 7 years ago?

  43. ChrisV Says:

    [blockquote]One question for those in the know. How does the non-US online gamling market now compare with the total online gamling market of 7 years ago?[/blockquote]

    lol. Let me put it this way. Probably 7-8 years ago Paradise Poker was completely dominant in the market. They ran a promotion for their 1 millionth hand, which is kind of funny in itself. The idea was that you got money for being in the hand, so a stack of people were logged onto the server and playing. At the peak, there were 2,200 people online.

    We were astounded. 2,200? It was unheard of! At peak times there would normally be 1,000 or so online. The load almost crashed their server, which I later found out was a single Pentium 2. Back then you could, if you wanted to, play 2 tables at once.

    Fast forward to the present day. The dominant sites are PartyPoker and PokerStars, which at peak times BOTH have ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND or more people online simultaneously. Each person is, if they choose, capable of playing 10 tables at once on Party, or an unlimited number on Stars.

    So yes, the market has grown massively. The real explosion was in 2003, when Chris Moneymaker won the WSOP main event, but it had grown hugely even before that. There’s a graph here. (I have no idea what that dip in the end is all about, the market is still expanding).

    Our main concern is that America is rich and supplies a lot of the money that feeds the poker economy. Also, while the number of online players has changed hugely over the last few years, there’s always been a balance maintained between the number of sharks and fish. If sharks from America are able to continue to play, but it’s too hard for casual players, then the games will get drastically harder.

  44. yobbo Says:

    Actually as far as I have seen Party only gets up to about 70,000 simultaneous players at peak time. No citation is provided in the wikipedia article.

    Check again in the morning I guess, or by “peak time” do they mean when there’s some massive freeroll tourney on?

  45. yobbo Says:

    By the way, taking a look at that Pokerpulse graph, it seems to me that the number of players has declined slightly while the number of pots has declined more markedly. I think this might be partly explained by the increasing popularity of NL cash games, where pots take much longer on average than limit or SNG pots.

  46. the reverse Says:

    Why not start the Yobbo party? Yobbo for PM!!!!!

    ]Surely if playing poker was lucrative enough than you would have made enough money to fund the campaign.


  47. Sam,

    I’d give JC & John’s trading ideas a burl. You’ve survived at something riskier than trading for seven years. That’s got to be a plus.

    Don’t let the turkeys get you down mate.


  48. Yobbo, you should teach your friends to play poker. For a few weeks, they will be a source of income. Guess how I learned to play?

    Seriously, it is hard to get into finance without experience, but you’ve got the discipline etc.

  49. Scott Says:

    Trading’s not hard, but it takes nerve. I lacked the nerve, but I would imagine being a poker player requires plenty of it. You’d be good at it, Yobs.


  50. That’s a tough break, Sam. Of course the stupid statist pricks can’t help themselves when it comes to interfering with the preferences of others.

  51. Paulus Says:

    Commiserations, Yobbo. Wowserism and nanny-statism strike again. You’d think they’d have learned something from Prohibition.

    Out of curiosity, would you be able to tell us what your earnings were as a % of money put at stake, over the course of a year? (I would understand, however, if you felt this was confidential.) Or at least the % that people with a similar skill level to yourself would be able to make in online poker (before the rug was pulled out).

    Best wishes for the future.

  52. ??? Says:

    I’m going to post this anonymously to avoid potential tax hassles, but I’m sure everyone can figure out who it is (hint: not Yobbo).

    Earnings “as a % of money put at stake” is a bit misleading. I had a great month last month and made ~$US 23,000, and I only started playing on the 13th. The amount of money I wagered to win that was in the order of $150,000. But it’s like betting $10 on 1,000,000 coinflips and then expecting people to be impressed that you’ve “wagered $10,000,000”. There’s no serious chance of losing that much money. The better question is how big a bankroll you need to avoid getting ruined by a run of bad luck. In the games I play, $US 10,000 is plenty.

    Under normal circumstances I would expect to easily make $US 10-15,000 a month if I played for 4 hours every day.

    A lot of people are (or were) making a stack more than this. Check out captZEEbo and john kane in this thread, for instance.

  53. the reverse Says:

    Will this be the end of the Yobbo blog???

  54. Karlos Says:

    Its a blow for sure, but not the death knell of online gaming.

    My understanding of the bill is that it makes it illegal for financial institutions to aid in the gambling process. Gamblers themselves will not be targeted under the legislation.

    Although a lot of large gambling companies have chickened out and pulled their US operations, there are many more who are staying (Ultimate Bet, Absolute Poker, Bodog, Pinnacle Sport).
    The way these companies can avoid prosecution is to process their credit card transactions through a third party. Unless the US government totally stops their citizens from sending money on the net, they cant do much. Neteller and Firepay still accept credit cards, and they can be easily used to gamble.

    Most likely it just means the rate of growth in the online gaming industry will slow, but it will still continue to grow.

  55. yobbo Says:

    Won’t be the end of my blog, may be the end of my job. Im sure if I go on the dole I will still have time to blog. Or maybe some generous newspaper will syndicate me?

    I got an offer a year or so ago from a porn site to write copy. Seriously considering it now.

  56. yobbo Says:

    By the way Paulus, Its not really relevant to say what my earnings were as a percentage of stake. I started with $100 7 years ago and never really needed to top it up.

    For the last 2-3 years I have earned around $30/hour playing poker. Not tremendous money but when you consider it is tax free its not bad. My biggest problem is I was too lazy to put in the hours needed to make serious money.

  57. yobbo Says:

    And by thw way, ChrisV who may or may not have already commented in this post, earns a lot more than me.

  58. Tex Says:

    If it’s any consolation, when I become a billionaire I’ll hire you to run a paid blog doing strip-joint and porn video reviews

  59. BMW Says:

    Cool site! Helpful topic!🙂

  60. turkish Says:

    i fuck all online casinos…everything s fix and lie..nobody wining even 1p..bullshit..mother fucker..all online casinos must be closed…i dont believe some people s winnig very big money from online casinos..this s %100 lie..

  61. perfectmoney Says:

    I’m not sure why but this blog is loading very slow for me.
    Is anyone else having this problem or is it a issue on my end?

    I’ll check back later on and see if the problem still exists.


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